How Do Beliefs Shape Our Life?
J:
Can we talk about how we create beliefs about various things, and how they affect us in our relationships and our personality
Ok. What beliefs do you have in mind?
J:
I am talking wrt the book by Louise Hay where she talks about how her low self esteem and the belief that she is no good or lovable which was created by her childhood experiences
U:
Childhood experiences bring in a contrary belief such as I’m not ok, or you're not ok, or no one is ok. Basic belief is I’m ok you're ok world is ok. That is because of the child’s interpretation about events. Limited data and lacking in perspective Also the need to subscribe to such beliefs in order to manage events beyond its understanding. They are useful to survive through childhood until we can grow to become adults.
J:
Can u give some examples? I mean examples of beliefs that we have as children which are useful
U:
As adults we have better understanding, better perspective, better resources, and better skills. What is needed is to manage this transition smoothly. It is like the ugly duckling becoming a swan. Or the eagle growing up in a chicken's nest. From my own example: I could never express my feelings of sadness, fear etc. I needed to feel strong and above emotions. So I withdrew into my own shell and lived as an introvert. Traces of it are there even today.
Fortunately I associated with role models who showed me a different world that I could peep into and learn. I also read and read and read...... So had access to a world of emotions that I could connect to .my condition made me empathise with other people's pain and helped me as a counsellor. But I was not living my own emotional life.... Only a proxy through others
U:
This type of behaviour is called as the "be strong" driver in Transactional Analysis. Some other behaviours are "Be Perfect", “Be Pleasing" etc. We feel ok only when we fulfil the driver conditions. Else life is terrible.
J:
How would a non-strong driver express
U:
Actually there is no non-strong driver..... Only non strong-driver behaviour. A driver free behaviour is very relaxing. One can give and receive strokes freely as required, and ask or refuse strokes if necessary. As adults we can appreciate each other, ask for appreciation or feedback, accept or refuse favours, say no when necessary, and also feel free to pat our own backs
J:
You mean there is no pressure to look good or strong
U:
Yes, you are right. Our ok-ness does not depend on looking good or strong, but on our basic humanness
J:
Can u throw more light on what is basic humanness.
U:
All humans are deserving of love, happiness, success, and fulfilment. No one is basically undeserving. Also all humans are basic problem solvers and have adequate resources and skills to cope. We can trust each other and respect one another because I’m ok, you’re ok, and everyone is ok. Some of our thinking and behaviours may not be ok and that is a matter for problem solving, not labelling. Not OK beliefs are chronic beliefs that create disharmony, conflict, and disease. We can trust each other and respect one another because I’m ok Youre ok and everyone is ok
J:
Going back a little... How do we develop this strong driver behaviour...? Is it inherent?
U:
OK beliefs are healing beliefs that promote understanding, cooperation, and good health. Well, it is a safety mechanism that is given to us to manage our childhood transition to manage painful situations and situations that do not make sense to us as children. It compensates for a lack of a trained counsellor who can guide us through the transition. It is a short term strategy that unfortunately we hold on to by habit through the long term and life term. The problem is that we become so smug with our strategies that we resist any suggestion that they are outdated and unproductive
J:
Some of the negative beliefs are also given to us by our adults around
U:
Other adults are part of our child environment na? Sometimes we take their input as god’s word. Sometimes we know they are wrong but still we internalise their messages because it is better than losing the relationship. We lie to ourselves and say they are saying the truth; the problem must be with me. This is the basis of self distrust and self disgust - I’m not OK
J:
Hmm... Ya, as children though we sense the vibes...we can’t analyse that they are saying few things because of their constraints
U:
True. Sometimes we protest. If we are a rebel child, we cover up the I'm not OK feeling by projecting it on to them. They are not OK. So I'm OK They're not OK. This is the origin of the angry young man. Becomes a domineering parent who puts down the kids.... You good for nothing creatures! So the paramparaa goes on from parent to child. Worse is when nothing makes sense. Then I'm not OK you’re not OK. And World is not OK. Such a person is a frustrated and cynical person who says - do unto others before they do it unto you.
J:
Ok so trying to recap... We are born feeling I am ok, u are ok and the world is ok...childhood experiences bring in contrary beliefs such as i am not ok , u are nnot ok , world is not ok .. That is because we lack resource skill perspective and data . We take our parents and adults words around as gospel
Judgements about experiences, and not the experiences themselves.... Childhood experiences are situations. Our response to them is based on how we judge them.... As safe, or terrible, etc. The same experience can be judged differently by different kids and their responses will be totally different from each other. It is our childhood judgment about experiences that influence our personalities.
These judgments are usually self fulfilling.... We may respond meekly and then we are labelled meek and that make us believe we are meek and respond accordingly. Probably there is a lot of truth in the statement about nature and nurture.... We have a predisposition to judgments as children which is Polished by our childhood environment. Polished or erased....
J:
Hmm... Need for drama is an inherent part of my personality
U:
What sort of drama did you act out?
J:
Though I hated to see that behaviour in the adults around ... I inherited it in my own way. I want to understand this "drama” phenomenon... What is it really? When I think back I remember getting a kick out of doing peculiar things... U:
We all have our ways of escaping reality and fulfilling it in imagination or through activities. The problem is that we recreate the painful parts too until we come down to the ground reality. We look for a surrogate parent who will love us, but our choice is based on the image of our real parent. So we recreate the relationship with both the good and the bad aspects filled in. That is what the drama is all about.
The drama consists of three roles.... Victimiser, victim, and rescuer. As the drama proceeds, we change our role from one to another and then feel bad. It usually requires two to play the drama.... Someone who will cooperate in fitting in to the script. Usually it is someone who had gone through the same drama before and knows it by heart. My drama usually starts with me as rescuer and ends up as victim. Secondary drama is victim - rebel
J:
You mean we attract situations where we play the role of a victim or a victimiser or rescuer
U:
Ya. Think of a tee shirt with double messages. The front says, play with me. The back says you cheated. Because that is the story of our life.... Our perception, not reality.
J:
And what is reality?
U:
The adult world where we are free to do what we want as long as we respect limits. Even as children, reality may be one and our perception may be another. What is required is for us to get a reality check... Whether we were really punished or only disciplined, whether we were really unloved or only overlooked.
J:
That’s nice
U:
That is where a counsellor can help.... Even when we are kids.
J:
Can help us see things more objectively
U:
That is the role of a guru in Indian tradition. Someone who can help you to become independent of your past and reconnect with your family. As adults rather than as grown kids.
J:
Wow... See that I recreate pain in my relationships itself was a big step. Having realized that, now how do I go about...?
U:
Recognise that you are a human being with adequate insight, knowledge, resources skill and freedom to step out of your drama and your pain that is packaged therein. You can validate your pain in terms of "this is how it was for me". And you can say good bye to your pain be saying, "This is not how it need be for me."
This is a process that may take time or may be instantaneous.... Depending on how much you are influenced by your habitual thinking. This transformation is the real success that is worth spending a lifetime on...... Ja? With such a free mind, vedanta is a cakewalk. It is a simple transition that moves from I'm ok you're ok to I AM. I AM has no ok-ness issues, ha?
J:
Yep. But a certain ok-ness is reqd to see that. 'I am' has no ok-ness issues
U:
Very true na?
J:
Ya
U:
That is the requirement of a vedantin before Vedanta becomes meaningful
J:
I was going thru what we spoke....
U:
J:
Playing role of rescuer victim victimizer - would like to go and see the drama aspect more clearly
U:
Ok. Let’s play a psychological game now
J:
That’s interesting
U:
You wear a tee-shirt that says: I will take care of you. I wear a tee shirt that says: Help me. We start the game in good faith. After some time I show you my back. My tee shirt says: I knew you couldn’t help me. You too turn your back where your tee shirt says: You ungrateful wretch. I knew you would do this to me.
J:
Ok
U:
Your game is: Why does this happen to me. My game is: You can’t trust anyone to help
J: hmm
U:
In the game of Kick me, we play differently. I tell you a story about how nobody loves me. You tell me that you love and understand me. After some time, I behave differently. I irritate and bug you until you are fed up and throw me out as a no good fellow. I say: See, everyone kicks me. You say: See, people always take advantage of me.
After a period of cooling we start the game all over again. Or better still, we find new partners to play. The interesting thing about this game is the sense of surprise at the end of the game and the cache of negative strokes earned as a result. We play the game without being aware that it is a game. Only after many rounds do we realize that we have been there before. That is the beginning of awareness
J:
For me I went thru dramas knowing that I am really interested only in the kick of the drama...
U:
The kick is in the self righteousness that we feel and the attention that we draw to ourselves in spite of the bad feeling that is consequent to the drama. It is like a gamblers high.... you are such a practiced gamer that you can play the game blind
J:
Becomes second nature
U:
Yes. In a drama, we set ourselves up for getting a predictable number of strokes from the partner. We start with positive strokes and end up with the negative until our quota of strokes has been met. We are like loving porcupines that cannot stay away from each other too long and cannot approach too close for the fear of hurting each other.
We need to realize that it is our own beliefs that hurt us much more than the behavior of the others in our lives.
J: Makes me wonder if there are genuine feelings at all or everything is drama oriented ... scary!!
U:
Genuine feelings are scary, J, because it involves taking action, giving commitments, and changing habits and behaviors. So we take the easier route of game playing what we are looking for is to get strokes and give strokes that is involved in a healthy relationship. But rather than going for genuine strokes, we go for game strokes that are less threatening and more familiar.
J:
Strokes?
U:
A stroke is a sign or recognition that we give each other as human beings. It can be a hello, a kind word, a heated exchange, physical touch or emotional exchange.
J:
Basically attention
U:
Positive strokes are respect, smiling, appreciation, importance, hugs, or simple good morning. Negative strokes are insults, physical abuse, avoidance, and the like. These can be conditional - like giving positive/negative feedback, or unconditional - I love/hate you.
Strokes can be verbal – ‘hi’ or non verbal - the sarcastic look that says ‘o there she goes again!’ we grow up trying to get our quota of positive strokes, but if they are not coming, we settle for negative strokes. Once we are used to a regular supply, we live our life in a way that will ensure that we are stocked up to meet daily needs
J:
That’s the crux I think
U:
If we are used to more negative strokes on a daily basis, we become uncomfortable when someone gives a positive strokes. We might deflect the appreciation or say that it is undeserved.
J:
And we keep attracting situations and incidents where our supply of negative strokes is ensured
U:
Yes.
J:
That sums it all up right.
U:
The hierarchy of strokes based on ease of obtaining is 1) withdrawal (self strokes) 2) rituals (routine strokes), 3) pastime (weather, cricket etc), 4) activity (dancing, tennis) 5) games and 6) intimacy. The last consists of the most intense, difficult but rewarding strokes, for it is based on reality and problem solving.
You are free to communicate your anger, fear, sadness and happiness without restraint in order to clear the atmosphere and make quality changes in the relationship the communication is in terms of win-win thinking - I’m ok, you’re ok, you and me need to deal with some not ok issues and iron out a few wrinkles. It involves honesty, commitment, acceptance, respect, openness, and long term perspectives. As long as we are travelling in that direction, life is ok. ; ‘All is well…..’
V:
U:
Hey, how does it work?
V: My guess is as good as yours. Got it from an inspirational article by Bruce Doyle.... i understood the principle behind it and have been trying to apply it as and when I find myself forcefully trying to change to more desirable behaviors... cos that leaves me feeling dis-spirited, but when I try to identify the assumptions I am carrying and then work on them it seems to help me more. Life is hard work.
U:
Hard work Rocks, V.... Good work appreciated.
Beliefs are based on assumptions. The question is whether they are verified or not.
Verified, the belief is either confirmed or rejected. Unverified beliefs are the hazardous ones to which we hold on to desperately. The problem is we are so much invested in them that we are unwilling to see the possibility that we might be wrong.
Most of our offensive or self-defeating behaviours were picked up in childhood as a strategy to sail in family waters. The problem is the strategy we used in a pool no longer works when we are out at sea. Makes sense?
V:
Yes of course makes a lot of sense
K:
Thank you for sharing this conversation. May i add this that our perception and experience also helps us to look at beleifs differently and then subsequently it is easy to replace them with newer validated ones to swim in the sea of life and relationships.
S: This conversation resonates with me today more so because I have had a few stressful days at work and I was wanting the "problems" to go away. The "problems" reminded me of my old and ineffective habits...and hence its better to see them gone...but today morning, I chose to meditate and pray to help "de-stress" and I learned to sit down with my "problem"...just sit down, quietly with my problems, not fight it, not wish it to be gone, not actively plotting to replace it with better and more effective habits, but just sit down quietly with the "problem".
Since then, the "problem" seems smaller, non-threatening and not really a "problem" any more. There is still work to be done on managing old ineffective habits, but that I realize cannot be done without making peace with the existence of the "problem" in the first place. For now the "problem", in its smaller & less potent version, is resting with me, in a sacred space inside me and I have kept it right next to where my desires to learn and grow reside. -----------------
Serenity InteractiveTopics of Interest
Personal Growth Pages
How Do Beliefs Shape Our Life?
J:
Can we talk about how we create beliefs about various things, and how they affect us in our relationships and our personality
Ok. What beliefs do you have in mind?
J:
I am talking wrt the book by Louise Hay where she talks about how her low self esteem and the belief that she is no good or lovable which was created by her childhood experiences
U:
Childhood experiences bring in a contrary belief such as I’m not ok, or you're not ok, or no one is ok. Basic belief is I’m ok you're ok world is ok. That is because of the child’s interpretation about events. Limited data and lacking in perspective Also the need to subscribe to such beliefs in order to manage events beyond its understanding. They are useful to survive through childhood until we can grow to become adults.
J:
Can u give some examples? I mean examples of beliefs that we have as children which are useful
U:
As adults we have better understanding, better perspective, better resources, and better skills. What is needed is to manage this transition smoothly. It is like the ugly duckling becoming a swan. Or the eagle growing up in a chicken's nest. From my own example: I could never express my feelings of sadness, fear etc. I needed to feel strong and above emotions. So I withdrew into my own shell and lived as an introvert. Traces of it are there even today.
Fortunately I associated with role models who showed me a different world that I could peep into and learn. I also read and read and read...... So had access to a world of emotions that I could connect to .my condition made me empathise with other people's pain and helped me as a counsellor. But I was not living my own emotional life.... Only a proxy through others
U:
This type of behaviour is called as the "be strong" driver in Transactional Analysis. Some other behaviours are "Be Perfect", “Be Pleasing" etc. We feel ok only when we fulfil the driver conditions. Else life is terrible.
J:
How would a non-strong driver express
U:
Actually there is no non-strong driver..... Only non strong-driver behaviour. A driver free behaviour is very relaxing. One can give and receive strokes freely as required, and ask or refuse strokes if necessary. As adults we can appreciate each other, ask for appreciation or feedback, accept or refuse favours, say no when necessary, and also feel free to pat our own backs
J:
You mean there is no pressure to look good or strong
U:
Yes, you are right. Our ok-ness does not depend on looking good or strong, but on our basic humanness
J:
Can u throw more light on what is basic humanness.
U:
All humans are deserving of love, happiness, success, and fulfilment. No one is basically undeserving. Also all humans are basic problem solvers and have adequate resources and skills to cope. We can trust each other and respect one another because I’m ok, you’re ok, and everyone is ok. Some of our thinking and behaviours may not be ok and that is a matter for problem solving, not labelling. Not OK beliefs are chronic beliefs that create disharmony, conflict, and disease. We can trust each other and respect one another because I’m ok Youre ok and everyone is ok
J:
Going back a little... How do we develop this strong driver behaviour...? Is it inherent?
U:
OK beliefs are healing beliefs that promote understanding, cooperation, and good health. Well, it is a safety mechanism that is given to us to manage our childhood transition to manage painful situations and situations that do not make sense to us as children. It compensates for a lack of a trained counsellor who can guide us through the transition. It is a short term strategy that unfortunately we hold on to by habit through the long term and life term. The problem is that we become so smug with our strategies that we resist any suggestion that they are outdated and unproductive
J:
Some of the negative beliefs are also given to us by our adults around
U:
Other adults are part of our child environment na? Sometimes we take their input as god’s word. Sometimes we know they are wrong but still we internalise their messages because it is better than losing the relationship. We lie to ourselves and say they are saying the truth; the problem must be with me. This is the basis of self distrust and self disgust - I’m not OK
J:
Hmm... Ya, as children though we sense the vibes...we can’t analyse that they are saying few things because of their constraints
U:
True. Sometimes we protest. If we are a rebel child, we cover up the I'm not OK feeling by projecting it on to them. They are not OK. So I'm OK They're not OK. This is the origin of the angry young man. Becomes a domineering parent who puts down the kids.... You good for nothing creatures! So the paramparaa goes on from parent to child. Worse is when nothing makes sense. Then I'm not OK you’re not OK. And World is not OK. Such a person is a frustrated and cynical person who says - do unto others before they do it unto you.
J:
Ok so trying to recap... We are born feeling I am ok, u are ok and the world is ok...childhood experiences bring in contrary beliefs such as i am not ok , u are nnot ok , world is not ok .. That is because we lack resource skill perspective and data . We take our parents and adults words around as gospel
Judgements about experiences, and not the experiences themselves.... Childhood experiences are situations. Our response to them is based on how we judge them.... As safe, or terrible, etc. The same experience can be judged differently by different kids and their responses will be totally different from each other. It is our childhood judgment about experiences that influence our personalities.
These judgments are usually self fulfilling.... We may respond meekly and then we are labelled meek and that make us believe we are meek and respond accordingly. Probably there is a lot of truth in the statement about nature and nurture.... We have a predisposition to judgments as children which is Polished by our childhood environment. Polished or erased....
J:
Hmm... Need for drama is an inherent part of my personality
U:
What sort of drama did you act out?
J:
Though I hated to see that behaviour in the adults around ... I inherited it in my own way. I want to understand this "drama” phenomenon... What is it really? When I think back I remember getting a kick out of doing peculiar things... U:
We all have our ways of escaping reality and fulfilling it in imagination or through activities. The problem is that we recreate the painful parts too until we come down to the ground reality. We look for a surrogate parent who will love us, but our choice is based on the image of our real parent. So we recreate the relationship with both the good and the bad aspects filled in. That is what the drama is all about.
The drama consists of three roles.... Victimiser, victim, and rescuer. As the drama proceeds, we change our role from one to another and then feel bad. It usually requires two to play the drama.... Someone who will cooperate in fitting in to the script. Usually it is someone who had gone through the same drama before and knows it by heart. My drama usually starts with me as rescuer and ends up as victim. Secondary drama is victim - rebel
J:
You mean we attract situations where we play the role of a victim or a victimiser or rescuer
U:
Ya. Think of a tee shirt with double messages. The front says, play with me. The back says you cheated. Because that is the story of our life.... Our perception, not reality.
J:
And what is reality?
U:
The adult world where we are free to do what we want as long as we respect limits. Even as children, reality may be one and our perception may be another. What is required is for us to get a reality check... Whether we were really punished or only disciplined, whether we were really unloved or only overlooked.
J:
That’s nice
U:
That is where a counsellor can help.... Even when we are kids.
J:
Can help us see things more objectively
U:
That is the role of a guru in Indian tradition. Someone who can help you to become independent of your past and reconnect with your family. As adults rather than as grown kids.
J:
Wow... See that I recreate pain in my relationships itself was a big step. Having realized that, now how do I go about...?
U:
Recognise that you are a human being with adequate insight, knowledge, resources skill and freedom to step out of your drama and your pain that is packaged therein. You can validate your pain in terms of "this is how it was for me". And you can say good bye to your pain be saying, "This is not how it need be for me."
This is a process that may take time or may be instantaneous.... Depending on how much you are influenced by your habitual thinking. This transformation is the real success that is worth spending a lifetime on...... Ja? With such a free mind, vedanta is a cakewalk. It is a simple transition that moves from I'm ok you're ok to I AM. I AM has no ok-ness issues, ha?
J:
Yep. But a certain ok-ness is reqd to see that. 'I am' has no ok-ness issues
U:
Very true na?
J:
Ya
U:
That is the requirement of a vedantin before Vedanta becomes meaningful
J:
I was going thru what we spoke....
U:
J:
Playing role of rescuer victim victimizer - would like to go and see the drama aspect more clearly
U:
Ok. Let’s play a psychological game now
J:
That’s interesting
U:
You wear a tee-shirt that says: I will take care of you. I wear a tee shirt that says: Help me. We start the game in good faith. After some time I show you my back. My tee shirt says: I knew you couldn’t help me. You too turn your back where your tee shirt says: You ungrateful wretch. I knew you would do this to me.
J:
Ok
U:
Your game is: Why does this happen to me. My game is: You can’t trust anyone to help
J: hmm
U:
In the game of Kick me, we play differently. I tell you a story about how nobody loves me. You tell me that you love and understand me. After some time, I behave differently. I irritate and bug you until you are fed up and throw me out as a no good fellow. I say: See, everyone kicks me. You say: See, people always take advantage of me.
After a period of cooling we start the game all over again. Or better still, we find new partners to play. The interesting thing about this game is the sense of surprise at the end of the game and the cache of negative strokes earned as a result. We play the game without being aware that it is a game. Only after many rounds do we realize that we have been there before. That is the beginning of awareness
J:
For me I went thru dramas knowing that I am really interested only in the kick of the drama...
U:
The kick is in the self righteousness that we feel and the attention that we draw to ourselves in spite of the bad feeling that is consequent to the drama. It is like a gamblers high.... you are such a practiced gamer that you can play the game blind
J:
Becomes second nature
U:
Yes. In a drama, we set ourselves up for getting a predictable number of strokes from the partner. We start with positive strokes and end up with the negative until our quota of strokes has been met. We are like loving porcupines that cannot stay away from each other too long and cannot approach too close for the fear of hurting each other.
We need to realize that it is our own beliefs that hurt us much more than the behavior of the others in our lives.
J: Makes me wonder if there are genuine feelings at all or everything is drama oriented ... scary!!
U:
Genuine feelings are scary, J, because it involves taking action, giving commitments, and changing habits and behaviors. So we take the easier route of game playing what we are looking for is to get strokes and give strokes that is involved in a healthy relationship. But rather than going for genuine strokes, we go for game strokes that are less threatening and more familiar.
J:
Strokes?
U:
A stroke is a sign or recognition that we give each other as human beings. It can be a hello, a kind word, a heated exchange, physical touch or emotional exchange.
J:
Basically attention
U:
Positive strokes are respect, smiling, appreciation, importance, hugs, or simple good morning. Negative strokes are insults, physical abuse, avoidance, and the like. These can be conditional - like giving positive/negative feedback, or unconditional - I love/hate you.
Strokes can be verbal – ‘hi’ or non verbal - the sarcastic look that says ‘o there she goes again!’ we grow up trying to get our quota of positive strokes, but if they are not coming, we settle for negative strokes. Once we are used to a regular supply, we live our life in a way that will ensure that we are stocked up to meet daily needs
J:
That’s the crux I think
U:
If we are used to more negative strokes on a daily basis, we become uncomfortable when someone gives a positive strokes. We might deflect the appreciation or say that it is undeserved.
J:
And we keep attracting situations and incidents where our supply of negative strokes is ensured
U:
Yes.
J:
That sums it all up right.
U:
The hierarchy of strokes based on ease of obtaining is 1) withdrawal (self strokes) 2) rituals (routine strokes), 3) pastime (weather, cricket etc), 4) activity (dancing, tennis) 5) games and 6) intimacy. The last consists of the most intense, difficult but rewarding strokes, for it is based on reality and problem solving.
You are free to communicate your anger, fear, sadness and happiness without restraint in order to clear the atmosphere and make quality changes in the relationship the communication is in terms of win-win thinking - I’m ok, you’re ok, you and me need to deal with some not ok issues and iron out a few wrinkles. It involves honesty, commitment, acceptance, respect, openness, and long term perspectives. As long as we are travelling in that direction, life is ok. ; ‘All is well…..’
V:
U:
Hey, how does it work?
V: My guess is as good as yours. Got it from an inspirational article by Bruce Doyle.... i understood the principle behind it and have been trying to apply it as and when I find myself forcefully trying to change to more desirable behaviors... cos that leaves me feeling dis-spirited, but when I try to identify the assumptions I am carrying and then work on them it seems to help me more. Life is hard work.
U:
Hard work Rocks, V.... Good work appreciated.
Beliefs are based on assumptions. The question is whether they are verified or not.
Verified, the belief is either confirmed or rejected. Unverified beliefs are the hazardous ones to which we hold on to desperately. The problem is we are so much invested in them that we are unwilling to see the possibility that we might be wrong.
Most of our offensive or self-defeating behaviours were picked up in childhood as a strategy to sail in family waters. The problem is the strategy we used in a pool no longer works when we are out at sea. Makes sense?
V:
Yes of course makes a lot of sense
K:
Thank you for sharing this conversation. May i add this that our perception and experience also helps us to look at beleifs differently and then subsequently it is easy to replace them with newer validated ones to swim in the sea of life and relationships.
S: This conversation resonates with me today more so because I have had a few stressful days at work and I was wanting the "problems" to go away. The "problems" reminded me of my old and ineffective habits...and hence its better to see them gone...but today morning, I chose to meditate and pray to help "de-stress" and I learned to sit down with my "problem"...just sit down, quietly with my problems, not fight it, not wish it to be gone, not actively plotting to replace it with better and more effective habits, but just sit down quietly with the "problem".
Since then, the "problem" seems smaller, non-threatening and not really a "problem" any more. There is still work to be done on managing old ineffective habits, but that I realize cannot be done without making peace with the existence of the "problem" in the first place. For now the "problem", in its smaller & less potent version, is resting with me, in a sacred space inside me and I have kept it right next to where my desires to learn and grow reside. -----------------
Serenity InteractiveTopics of Interest
Personal Growth Pages
How Do Beliefs Shape Our Life?
J:
Can we talk about how we create beliefs about various things, and how they affect us in our relationships and our personality
Ok. What beliefs do you have in mind?
J:
I am talking wrt the book by Louise Hay where she talks about how her low self esteem and the belief that she is no good or lovable which was created by her childhood experiences
U:
Childhood experiences bring in a contrary belief such as I’m not ok, or you're not ok, or no one is ok. Basic belief is I’m ok you're ok world is ok. That is because of the child’s interpretation about events. Limited data and lacking in perspective Also the need to subscribe to such beliefs in order to manage events beyond its understanding. They are useful to survive through childhood until we can grow to become adults.
J:
Can u give some examples? I mean examples of beliefs that we have as children which are useful
U:
As adults we have better understanding, better perspective, better resources, and better skills. What is needed is to manage this transition smoothly. It is like the ugly duckling becoming a swan. Or the eagle growing up in a chicken's nest. From my own example: I could never express my feelings of sadness, fear etc. I needed to feel strong and above emotions. So I withdrew into my own shell and lived as an introvert. Traces of it are there even today.
Fortunately I associated with role models who showed me a different world that I could peep into and learn. I also read and read and read...... So had access to a world of emotions that I could connect to .my condition made me empathise with other people's pain and helped me as a counsellor. But I was not living my own emotional life.... Only a proxy through others
U:
This type of behaviour is called as the "be strong" driver in Transactional Analysis. Some other behaviours are "Be Perfect", “Be Pleasing" etc. We feel ok only when we fulfil the driver conditions. Else life is terrible.
J:
How would a non-strong driver express
U:
Actually there is no non-strong driver..... Only non strong-driver behaviour. A driver free behaviour is very relaxing. One can give and receive strokes freely as required, and ask or refuse strokes if necessary. As adults we can appreciate each other, ask for appreciation or feedback, accept or refuse favours, say no when necessary, and also feel free to pat our own backs
J:
You mean there is no pressure to look good or strong
U:
Yes, you are right. Our ok-ness does not depend on looking good or strong, but on our basic humanness
J:
Can u throw more light on what is basic humanness.
U:
All humans are deserving of love, happiness, success, and fulfilment. No one is basically undeserving. Also all humans are basic problem solvers and have adequate resources and skills to cope. We can trust each other and respect one another because I’m ok, you’re ok, and everyone is ok. Some of our thinking and behaviours may not be ok and that is a matter for problem solving, not labelling. Not OK beliefs are chronic beliefs that create disharmony, conflict, and disease. We can trust each other and respect one another because I’m ok Youre ok and everyone is ok
J:
Going back a little... How do we develop this strong driver behaviour...? Is it inherent?
U:
OK beliefs are healing beliefs that promote understanding, cooperation, and good health. Well, it is a safety mechanism that is given to us to manage our childhood transition to manage painful situations and situations that do not make sense to us as children. It compensates for a lack of a trained counsellor who can guide us through the transition. It is a short term strategy that unfortunately we hold on to by habit through the long term and life term. The problem is that we become so smug with our strategies that we resist any suggestion that they are outdated and unproductive
J:
Some of the negative beliefs are also given to us by our adults around
U:
Other adults are part of our child environment na? Sometimes we take their input as god’s word. Sometimes we know they are wrong but still we internalise their messages because it is better than losing the relationship. We lie to ourselves and say they are saying the truth; the problem must be with me. This is the basis of self distrust and self disgust - I’m not OK
J:
Hmm... Ya, as children though we sense the vibes...we can’t analyse that they are saying few things because of their constraints
U:
True. Sometimes we protest. If we are a rebel child, we cover up the I'm not OK feeling by projecting it on to them. They are not OK. So I'm OK They're not OK. This is the origin of the angry young man. Becomes a domineering parent who puts down the kids.... You good for nothing creatures! So the paramparaa goes on from parent to child. Worse is when nothing makes sense. Then I'm not OK you’re not OK. And World is not OK. Such a person is a frustrated and cynical person who says - do unto others before they do it unto you.
J:
Ok so trying to recap... We are born feeling I am ok, u are ok and the world is ok...childhood experiences bring in contrary beliefs such as i am not ok , u are nnot ok , world is not ok .. That is because we lack resource skill perspective and data . We take our parents and adults words around as gospel
Judgements about experiences, and not the experiences themselves.... Childhood experiences are situations. Our response to them is based on how we judge them.... As safe, or terrible, etc. The same experience can be judged differently by different kids and their responses will be totally different from each other. It is our childhood judgment about experiences that influence our personalities.
These judgments are usually self fulfilling.... We may respond meekly and then we are labelled meek and that make us believe we are meek and respond accordingly. Probably there is a lot of truth in the statement about nature and nurture.... We have a predisposition to judgments as children which is Polished by our childhood environment. Polished or erased....
J:
Hmm... Need for drama is an inherent part of my personality
U:
What sort of drama did you act out?
J:
Though I hated to see that behaviour in the adults around ... I inherited it in my own way. I want to understand this "drama” phenomenon... What is it really? When I think back I remember getting a kick out of doing peculiar things... U:
We all have our ways of escaping reality and fulfilling it in imagination or through activities. The problem is that we recreate the painful parts too until we come down to the ground reality. We look for a surrogate parent who will love us, but our choice is based on the image of our real parent. So we recreate the relationship with both the good and the bad aspects filled in. That is what the drama is all about.
The drama consists of three roles.... Victimiser, victim, and rescuer. As the drama proceeds, we change our role from one to another and then feel bad. It usually requires two to play the drama.... Someone who will cooperate in fitting in to the script. Usually it is someone who had gone through the same drama before and knows it by heart. My drama usually starts with me as rescuer and ends up as victim. Secondary drama is victim - rebel
J:
You mean we attract situations where we play the role of a victim or a victimiser or rescuer
U:
Ya. Think of a tee shirt with double messages. The front says, play with me. The back says you cheated. Because that is the story of our life.... Our perception, not reality.
J:
And what is reality?
U:
The adult world where we are free to do what we want as long as we respect limits. Even as children, reality may be one and our perception may be another. What is required is for us to get a reality check... Whether we were really punished or only disciplined, whether we were really unloved or only overlooked.
J:
That’s nice
U:
That is where a counsellor can help.... Even when we are kids.
J:
Can help us see things more objectively
U:
That is the role of a guru in Indian tradition. Someone who can help you to become independent of your past and reconnect with your family. As adults rather than as grown kids.
J:
Wow... See that I recreate pain in my relationships itself was a big step. Having realized that, now how do I go about...?
U:
Recognise that you are a human being with adequate insight, knowledge, resources skill and freedom to step out of your drama and your pain that is packaged therein. You can validate your pain in terms of "this is how it was for me". And you can say good bye to your pain be saying, "This is not how it need be for me."
This is a process that may take time or may be instantaneous.... Depending on how much you are influenced by your habitual thinking. This transformation is the real success that is worth spending a lifetime on...... Ja? With such a free mind, vedanta is a cakewalk. It is a simple transition that moves from I'm ok you're ok to I AM. I AM has no ok-ness issues, ha?
J:
Yep. But a certain ok-ness is reqd to see that. 'I am' has no ok-ness issues
U:
Very true na?
J:
Ya
U:
That is the requirement of a vedantin before Vedanta becomes meaningful
J:
I was going thru what we spoke....
U:
J:
Playing role of rescuer victim victimizer - would like to go and see the drama aspect more clearly
U:
Ok. Let’s play a psychological game now
J:
That’s interesting
U:
You wear a tee-shirt that says: I will take care of you. I wear a tee shirt that says: Help me. We start the game in good faith. After some time I show you my back. My tee shirt says: I knew you couldn’t help me. You too turn your back where your tee shirt says: You ungrateful wretch. I knew you would do this to me.
J:
Ok
U:
Your game is: Why does this happen to me. My game is: You can’t trust anyone to help
J: hmm
U:
In the game of Kick me, we play differently. I tell you a story about how nobody loves me. You tell me that you love and understand me. After some time, I behave differently. I irritate and bug you until you are fed up and throw me out as a no good fellow. I say: See, everyone kicks me. You say: See, people always take advantage of me.
After a period of cooling we start the game all over again. Or better still, we find new partners to play. The interesting thing about this game is the sense of surprise at the end of the game and the cache of negative strokes earned as a result. We play the game without being aware that it is a game. Only after many rounds do we realize that we have been there before. That is the beginning of awareness
J:
For me I went thru dramas knowing that I am really interested only in the kick of the drama...
U:
The kick is in the self righteousness that we feel and the attention that we draw to ourselves in spite of the bad feeling that is consequent to the drama. It is like a gamblers high.... you are such a practiced gamer that you can play the game blind
J:
Becomes second nature
U:
Yes. In a drama, we set ourselves up for getting a predictable number of strokes from the partner. We start with positive strokes and end up with the negative until our quota of strokes has been met. We are like loving porcupines that cannot stay away from each other too long and cannot approach too close for the fear of hurting each other.
We need to realize that it is our own beliefs that hurt us much more than the behavior of the others in our lives.
J: Makes me wonder if there are genuine feelings at all or everything is drama oriented ... scary!!
U:
Genuine feelings are scary, J, because it involves taking action, giving commitments, and changing habits and behaviors. So we take the easier route of game playing what we are looking for is to get strokes and give strokes that is involved in a healthy relationship. But rather than going for genuine strokes, we go for game strokes that are less threatening and more familiar.
J:
Strokes?
U:
A stroke is a sign or recognition that we give each other as human beings. It can be a hello, a kind word, a heated exchange, physical touch or emotional exchange.
J:
Basically attention
U:
Positive strokes are respect, smiling, appreciation, importance, hugs, or simple good morning. Negative strokes are insults, physical abuse, avoidance, and the like. These can be conditional - like giving positive/negative feedback, or unconditional - I love/hate you.
Strokes can be verbal – ‘hi’ or non verbal - the sarcastic look that says ‘o there she goes again!’ we grow up trying to get our quota of positive strokes, but if they are not coming, we settle for negative strokes. Once we are used to a regular supply, we live our life in a way that will ensure that we are stocked up to meet daily needs
J:
That’s the crux I think
U:
If we are used to more negative strokes on a daily basis, we become uncomfortable when someone gives a positive strokes. We might deflect the appreciation or say that it is undeserved.
J:
And we keep attracting situations and incidents where our supply of negative strokes is ensured
U:
Yes.
J:
That sums it all up right.
U:
The hierarchy of strokes based on ease of obtaining is 1) withdrawal (self strokes) 2) rituals (routine strokes), 3) pastime (weather, cricket etc), 4) activity (dancing, tennis) 5) games and 6) intimacy. The last consists of the most intense, difficult but rewarding strokes, for it is based on reality and problem solving.
You are free to communicate your anger, fear, sadness and happiness without restraint in order to clear the atmosphere and make quality changes in the relationship the communication is in terms of win-win thinking - I’m ok, you’re ok, you and me need to deal with some not ok issues and iron out a few wrinkles. It involves honesty, commitment, acceptance, respect, openness, and long term perspectives. As long as we are travelling in that direction, life is ok. ; ‘All is well…..’
V:
U:
Hey, how does it work?
V: My guess is as good as yours. Got it from an inspirational article by Bruce Doyle.... i understood the principle behind it and have been trying to apply it as and when I find myself forcefully trying to change to more desirable behaviors... cos that leaves me feeling dis-spirited, but when I try to identify the assumptions I am carrying and then work on them it seems to help me more. Life is hard work.
U:
Hard work Rocks, V.... Good work appreciated.
Beliefs are based on assumptions. The question is whether they are verified or not.
Verified, the belief is either confirmed or rejected. Unverified beliefs are the hazardous ones to which we hold on to desperately. The problem is we are so much invested in them that we are unwilling to see the possibility that we might be wrong.
Most of our offensive or self-defeating behaviours were picked up in childhood as a strategy to sail in family waters. The problem is the strategy we used in a pool no longer works when we are out at sea. Makes sense?
V:
Yes of course makes a lot of sense
K:
Thank you for sharing this conversation. May i add this that our perception and experience also helps us to look at beleifs differently and then subsequently it is easy to replace them with newer validated ones to swim in the sea of life and relationships.
S: This conversation resonates with me today more so because I have had a few stressful days at work and I was wanting the "problems" to go away. The "problems" reminded me of my old and ineffective habits...and hence its better to see them gone...but today morning, I chose to meditate and pray to help "de-stress" and I learned to sit down with my "problem"...just sit down, quietly with my problems, not fight it, not wish it to be gone, not actively plotting to replace it with better and more effective habits, but just sit down quietly with the "problem".
Since then, the "problem" seems smaller, non-threatening and not really a "problem" any more. There is still work to be done on managing old ineffective habits, but that I realize cannot be done without making peace with the existence of the "problem" in the first place. For now the "problem", in its smaller & less potent version, is resting with me, in a sacred space inside me and I have kept it right next to where my desires to learn and grow reside. -----------------
Serenity InteractiveTopics of Interest
Personal Growth Pages
How Do Beliefs Shape Our Life?
J:
Can we talk about how we create beliefs about various things, and how they affect us in our relationships and our personality
Ok. What beliefs do you have in mind?
J:
I am talking wrt the book by Louise Hay where she talks about how her low self esteem and the belief that she is no good or lovable which was created by her childhood experiences
U:
Childhood experiences bring in a contrary belief such as I’m not ok, or you're not ok, or no one is ok. Basic belief is I’m ok you're ok world is ok. That is because of the child’s interpretation about events. Limited data and lacking in perspective Also the need to subscribe to such beliefs in order to manage events beyond its understanding. They are useful to survive through childhood until we can grow to become adults.
J:
Can u give some examples? I mean examples of beliefs that we have as children which are useful
U:
As adults we have better understanding, better perspective, better resources, and better skills. What is needed is to manage this transition smoothly. It is like the ugly duckling becoming a swan. Or the eagle growing up in a chicken's nest. From my own example: I could never express my feelings of sadness, fear etc. I needed to feel strong and above emotions. So I withdrew into my own shell and lived as an introvert. Traces of it are there even today.
Fortunately I associated with role models who showed me a different world that I could peep into and learn. I also read and read and read...... So had access to a world of emotions that I could connect to .my condition made me empathise with other people's pain and helped me as a counsellor. But I was not living my own emotional life.... Only a proxy through others
U:
This type of behaviour is called as the "be strong" driver in Transactional Analysis. Some other behaviours are "Be Perfect", “Be Pleasing" etc. We feel ok only when we fulfil the driver conditions. Else life is terrible.
J:
How would a non-strong driver express
U:
Actually there is no non-strong driver..... Only non strong-driver behaviour. A driver free behaviour is very relaxing. One can give and receive strokes freely as required, and ask or refuse strokes if necessary. As adults we can appreciate each other, ask for appreciation or feedback, accept or refuse favours, say no when necessary, and also feel free to pat our own backs
J:
You mean there is no pressure to look good or strong
U:
Yes, you are right. Our ok-ness does not depend on looking good or strong, but on our basic humanness
J:
Can u throw more light on what is basic humanness.
U:
All humans are deserving of love, happiness, success, and fulfilment. No one is basically undeserving. Also all humans are basic problem solvers and have adequate resources and skills to cope. We can trust each other and respect one another because I’m ok, you’re ok, and everyone is ok. Some of our thinking and behaviours may not be ok and that is a matter for problem solving, not labelling. Not OK beliefs are chronic beliefs that create disharmony, conflict, and disease. We can trust each other and respect one another because I’m ok Youre ok and everyone is ok
J:
Going back a little... How do we develop this strong driver behaviour...? Is it inherent?
U:
OK beliefs are healing beliefs that promote understanding, cooperation, and good health. Well, it is a safety mechanism that is given to us to manage our childhood transition to manage painful situations and situations that do not make sense to us as children. It compensates for a lack of a trained counsellor who can guide us through the transition. It is a short term strategy that unfortunately we hold on to by habit through the long term and life term. The problem is that we become so smug with our strategies that we resist any suggestion that they are outdated and unproductive
J:
Some of the negative beliefs are also given to us by our adults around
U:
Other adults are part of our child environment na? Sometimes we take their input as god’s word. Sometimes we know they are wrong but still we internalise their messages because it is better than losing the relationship. We lie to ourselves and say they are saying the truth; the problem must be with me. This is the basis of self distrust and self disgust - I’m not OK
J:
Hmm... Ya, as children though we sense the vibes...we can’t analyse that they are saying few things because of their constraints
U:
True. Sometimes we protest. If we are a rebel child, we cover up the I'm not OK feeling by projecting it on to them. They are not OK. So I'm OK They're not OK. This is the origin of the angry young man. Becomes a domineering parent who puts down the kids.... You good for nothing creatures! So the paramparaa goes on from parent to child. Worse is when nothing makes sense. Then I'm not OK you’re not OK. And World is not OK. Such a person is a frustrated and cynical person who says - do unto others before they do it unto you.
J:
Ok so trying to recap... We are born feeling I am ok, u are ok and the world is ok...childhood experiences bring in contrary beliefs such as i am not ok , u are nnot ok , world is not ok .. That is because we lack resource skill perspective and data . We take our parents and adults words around as gospel
Judgements about experiences, and not the experiences themselves.... Childhood experiences are situations. Our response to them is based on how we judge them.... As safe, or terrible, etc. The same experience can be judged differently by different kids and their responses will be totally different from each other. It is our childhood judgment about experiences that influence our personalities.
These judgments are usually self fulfilling.... We may respond meekly and then we are labelled meek and that make us believe we are meek and respond accordingly. Probably there is a lot of truth in the statement about nature and nurture.... We have a predisposition to judgments as children which is Polished by our childhood environment. Polished or erased....
J:
Hmm... Need for drama is an inherent part of my personality
U:
What sort of drama did you act out?
J:
Though I hated to see that behaviour in the adults around ... I inherited it in my own way. I want to understand this "drama” phenomenon... What is it really? When I think back I remember getting a kick out of doing peculiar things... U:
We all have our ways of escaping reality and fulfilling it in imagination or through activities. The problem is that we recreate the painful parts too until we come down to the ground reality. We look for a surrogate parent who will love us, but our choice is based on the image of our real parent. So we recreate the relationship with both the good and the bad aspects filled in. That is what the drama is all about.
The drama consists of three roles.... Victimiser, victim, and rescuer. As the drama proceeds, we change our role from one to another and then feel bad. It usually requires two to play the drama.... Someone who will cooperate in fitting in to the script. Usually it is someone who had gone through the same drama before and knows it by heart. My drama usually starts with me as rescuer and ends up as victim. Secondary drama is victim - rebel
J:
You mean we attract situations where we play the role of a victim or a victimiser or rescuer
U:
Ya. Think of a tee shirt with double messages. The front says, play with me. The back says you cheated. Because that is the story of our life.... Our perception, not reality.
J:
And what is reality?
U:
The adult world where we are free to do what we want as long as we respect limits. Even as children, reality may be one and our perception may be another. What is required is for us to get a reality check... Whether we were really punished or only disciplined, whether we were really unloved or only overlooked.
J:
That’s nice
U:
That is where a counsellor can help.... Even when we are kids.
J:
Can help us see things more objectively
U:
That is the role of a guru in Indian tradition. Someone who can help you to become independent of your past and reconnect with your family. As adults rather than as grown kids.
J:
Wow... See that I recreate pain in my relationships itself was a big step. Having realized that, now how do I go about...?
U:
Recognise that you are a human being with adequate insight, knowledge, resources skill and freedom to step out of your drama and your pain that is packaged therein. You can validate your pain in terms of "this is how it was for me". And you can say good bye to your pain be saying, "This is not how it need be for me."
This is a process that may take time or may be instantaneous.... Depending on how much you are influenced by your habitual thinking. This transformation is the real success that is worth spending a lifetime on...... Ja? With such a free mind, vedanta is a cakewalk. It is a simple transition that moves from I'm ok you're ok to I AM. I AM has no ok-ness issues, ha?
J:
Yep. But a certain ok-ness is reqd to see that. 'I am' has no ok-ness issues
U:
Very true na?
J:
Ya
U:
That is the requirement of a vedantin before Vedanta becomes meaningful
J:
I was going thru what we spoke....
U:
J:
Playing role of rescuer victim victimizer - would like to go and see the drama aspect more clearly
U:
Ok. Let’s play a psychological game now
J:
That’s interesting
U:
You wear a tee-shirt that says: I will take care of you. I wear a tee shirt that says: Help me. We start the game in good faith. After some time I show you my back. My tee shirt says: I knew you couldn’t help me. You too turn your back where your tee shirt says: You ungrateful wretch. I knew you would do this to me.
J:
Ok
U:
Your game is: Why does this happen to me. My game is: You can’t trust anyone to help
J: hmm
U:
In the game of Kick me, we play differently. I tell you a story about how nobody loves me. You tell me that you love and understand me. After some time, I behave differently. I irritate and bug you until you are fed up and throw me out as a no good fellow. I say: See, everyone kicks me. You say: See, people always take advantage of me.
After a period of cooling we start the game all over again. Or better still, we find new partners to play. The interesting thing about this game is the sense of surprise at the end of the game and the cache of negative strokes earned as a result. We play the game without being aware that it is a game. Only after many rounds do we realize that we have been there before. That is the beginning of awareness
J:
For me I went thru dramas knowing that I am really interested only in the kick of the drama...
U:
The kick is in the self righteousness that we feel and the attention that we draw to ourselves in spite of the bad feeling that is consequent to the drama. It is like a gamblers high.... you are such a practiced gamer that you can play the game blind
J:
Becomes second nature
U:
Yes. In a drama, we set ourselves up for getting a predictable number of strokes from the partner. We start with positive strokes and end up with the negative until our quota of strokes has been met. We are like loving porcupines that cannot stay away from each other too long and cannot approach too close for the fear of hurting each other.
We need to realize that it is our own beliefs that hurt us much more than the behavior of the others in our lives.
J: Makes me wonder if there are genuine feelings at all or everything is drama oriented ... scary!!
U:
Genuine feelings are scary, J, because it involves taking action, giving commitments, and changing habits and behaviors. So we take the easier route of game playing what we are looking for is to get strokes and give strokes that is involved in a healthy relationship. But rather than going for genuine strokes, we go for game strokes that are less threatening and more familiar.
J:
Strokes?
U:
A stroke is a sign or recognition that we give each other as human beings. It can be a hello, a kind word, a heated exchange, physical touch or emotional exchange.
J:
Basically attention
U:
Positive strokes are respect, smiling, appreciation, importance, hugs, or simple good morning. Negative strokes are insults, physical abuse, avoidance, and the like. These can be conditional - like giving positive/negative feedback, or unconditional - I love/hate you.
Strokes can be verbal – ‘hi’ or non verbal - the sarcastic look that says ‘o there she goes again!’ we grow up trying to get our quota of positive strokes, but if they are not coming, we settle for negative strokes. Once we are used to a regular supply, we live our life in a way that will ensure that we are stocked up to meet daily needs
J:
That’s the crux I think
U:
If we are used to more negative strokes on a daily basis, we become uncomfortable when someone gives a positive strokes. We might deflect the appreciation or say that it is undeserved.
J:
And we keep attracting situations and incidents where our supply of negative strokes is ensured
U:
Yes.
J:
That sums it all up right.
U:
The hierarchy of strokes based on ease of obtaining is 1) withdrawal (self strokes) 2) rituals (routine strokes), 3) pastime (weather, cricket etc), 4) activity (dancing, tennis) 5) games and 6) intimacy. The last consists of the most intense, difficult but rewarding strokes, for it is based on reality and problem solving.
You are free to communicate your anger, fear, sadness and happiness without restraint in order to clear the atmosphere and make quality changes in the relationship the communication is in terms of win-win thinking - I’m ok, you’re ok, you and me need to deal with some not ok issues and iron out a few wrinkles. It involves honesty, commitment, acceptance, respect, openness, and long term perspectives. As long as we are travelling in that direction, life is ok. ; ‘All is well…..’
V:
U:
Hey, how does it work?
V: My guess is as good as yours. Got it from an inspirational article by Bruce Doyle.... i understood the principle behind it and have been trying to apply it as and when I find myself forcefully trying to change to more desirable behaviors... cos that leaves me feeling dis-spirited, but when I try to identify the assumptions I am carrying and then work on them it seems to help me more. Life is hard work.
U:
Hard work Rocks, V.... Good work appreciated.
Beliefs are based on assumptions. The question is whether they are verified or not.
Verified, the belief is either confirmed or rejected. Unverified beliefs are the hazardous ones to which we hold on to desperately. The problem is we are so much invested in them that we are unwilling to see the possibility that we might be wrong.
Most of our offensive or self-defeating behaviours were picked up in childhood as a strategy to sail in family waters. The problem is the strategy we used in a pool no longer works when we are out at sea. Makes sense?
V:
Yes of course makes a lot of sense
K:
Thank you for sharing this conversation. May i add this that our perception and experience also helps us to look at beleifs differently and then subsequently it is easy to replace them with newer validated ones to swim in the sea of life and relationships.
S: This conversation resonates with me today more so because I have had a few stressful days at work and I was wanting the "problems" to go away. The "problems" reminded me of my old and ineffective habits...and hence its better to see them gone...but today morning, I chose to meditate and pray to help "de-stress" and I learned to sit down with my "problem"...just sit down, quietly with my problems, not fight it, not wish it to be gone, not actively plotting to replace it with better and more effective habits, but just sit down quietly with the "problem".
Since then, the "problem" seems smaller, non-threatening and not really a "problem" any more. There is still work to be done on managing old ineffective habits, but that I realize cannot be done without making peace with the existence of the "problem" in the first place. For now the "problem", in its smaller & less potent version, is resting with me, in a sacred space inside me and I have kept it right next to where my desires to learn and grow reside. -----------------
Serenity InteractiveTopics of Interest
Personal Growth Pages
How Do Beliefs Shape Our Life?
J:
Can we talk about how we create beliefs about various things, and how they affect us in our relationships and our personality
Ok. What beliefs do you have in mind?
J:
I am talking wrt the book by Louise Hay where she talks about how her low self esteem and the belief that she is no good or lovable which was created by her childhood experiences
U:
Childhood experiences bring in a contrary belief such as I’m not ok, or you're not ok, or no one is ok. Basic belief is I’m ok you're ok world is ok. That is because of the child’s interpretation about events. Limited data and lacking in perspective Also the need to subscribe to such beliefs in order to manage events beyond its understanding. They are useful to survive through childhood until we can grow to become adults.
J:
Can u give some examples? I mean examples of beliefs that we have as children which are useful
U:
As adults we have better understanding, better perspective, better resources, and better skills. What is needed is to manage this transition smoothly. It is like the ugly duckling becoming a swan. Or the eagle growing up in a chicken's nest. From my own example: I could never express my feelings of sadness, fear etc. I needed to feel strong and above emotions. So I withdrew into my own shell and lived as an introvert. Traces of it are there even today.
Fortunately I associated with role models who showed me a different world that I could peep into and learn. I also read and read and read...... So had access to a world of emotions that I could connect to .my condition made me empathise with other people's pain and helped me as a counsellor. But I was not living my own emotional life.... Only a proxy through others
U:
This type of behaviour is called as the "be strong" driver in Transactional Analysis. Some other behaviours are "Be Perfect", “Be Pleasing" etc. We feel ok only when we fulfil the driver conditions. Else life is terrible.
J:
How would a non-strong driver express
U:
Actually there is no non-strong driver..... Only non strong-driver behaviour. A driver free behaviour is very relaxing. One can give and receive strokes freely as required, and ask or refuse strokes if necessary. As adults we can appreciate each other, ask for appreciation or feedback, accept or refuse favours, say no when necessary, and also feel free to pat our own backs
J:
You mean there is no pressure to look good or strong
U:
Yes, you are right. Our ok-ness does not depend on looking good or strong, but on our basic humanness
J:
Can u throw more light on what is basic humanness.
U:
All humans are deserving of love, happiness, success, and fulfilment. No one is basically undeserving. Also all humans are basic problem solvers and have adequate resources and skills to cope. We can trust each other and respect one another because I’m ok, you’re ok, and everyone is ok. Some of our thinking and behaviours may not be ok and that is a matter for problem solving, not labelling. Not OK beliefs are chronic beliefs that create disharmony, conflict, and disease. We can trust each other and respect one another because I’m ok Youre ok and everyone is ok
J:
Going back a little... How do we develop this strong driver behaviour...? Is it inherent?
U:
OK beliefs are healing beliefs that promote understanding, cooperation, and good health. Well, it is a safety mechanism that is given to us to manage our childhood transition to manage painful situations and situations that do not make sense to us as children. It compensates for a lack of a trained counsellor who can guide us through the transition. It is a short term strategy that unfortunately we hold on to by habit through the long term and life term. The problem is that we become so smug with our strategies that we resist any suggestion that they are outdated and unproductive
J:
Some of the negative beliefs are also given to us by our adults around
U:
Other adults are part of our child environment na? Sometimes we take their input as god’s word. Sometimes we know they are wrong but still we internalise their messages because it is better than losing the relationship. We lie to ourselves and say they are saying the truth; the problem must be with me. This is the basis of self distrust and self disgust - I’m not OK
J:
Hmm... Ya, as children though we sense the vibes...we can’t analyse that they are saying few things because of their constraints
U:
True. Sometimes we protest. If we are a rebel child, we cover up the I'm not OK feeling by projecting it on to them. They are not OK. So I'm OK They're not OK. This is the origin of the angry young man. Becomes a domineering parent who puts down the kids.... You good for nothing creatures! So the paramparaa goes on from parent to child. Worse is when nothing makes sense. Then I'm not OK you’re not OK. And World is not OK. Such a person is a frustrated and cynical person who says - do unto others before they do it unto you.
J:
Ok so trying to recap... We are born feeling I am ok, u are ok and the world is ok...childhood experiences bring in contrary beliefs such as i am not ok , u are nnot ok , world is not ok .. That is because we lack resource skill perspective and data . We take our parents and adults words around as gospel
Judgements about experiences, and not the experiences themselves.... Childhood experiences are situations. Our response to them is based on how we judge them.... As safe, or terrible, etc. The same experience can be judged differently by different kids and their responses will be totally different from each other. It is our childhood judgment about experiences that influence our personalities.
These judgments are usually self fulfilling.... We may respond meekly and then we are labelled meek and that make us believe we are meek and respond accordingly. Probably there is a lot of truth in the statement about nature and nurture.... We have a predisposition to judgments as children which is Polished by our childhood environment. Polished or erased....
J:
Hmm... Need for drama is an inherent part of my personality
U:
What sort of drama did you act out?
J:
Though I hated to see that behaviour in the adults around ... I inherited it in my own way. I want to understand this "drama” phenomenon... What is it really? When I think back I remember getting a kick out of doing peculiar things... U:
We all have our ways of escaping reality and fulfilling it in imagination or through activities. The problem is that we recreate the painful parts too until we come down to the ground reality. We look for a surrogate parent who will love us, but our choice is based on the image of our real parent. So we recreate the relationship with both the good and the bad aspects filled in. That is what the drama is all about.
The drama consists of three roles.... Victimiser, victim, and rescuer. As the drama proceeds, we change our role from one to another and then feel bad. It usually requires two to play the drama.... Someone who will cooperate in fitting in to the script. Usually it is someone who had gone through the same drama before and knows it by heart. My drama usually starts with me as rescuer and ends up as victim. Secondary drama is victim - rebel
J:
You mean we attract situations where we play the role of a victim or a victimiser or rescuer
U:
Ya. Think of a tee shirt with double messages. The front says, play with me. The back says you cheated. Because that is the story of our life.... Our perception, not reality.
J:
And what is reality?
U:
The adult world where we are free to do what we want as long as we respect limits. Even as children, reality may be one and our perception may be another. What is required is for us to get a reality check... Whether we were really punished or only disciplined, whether we were really unloved or only overlooked.
J:
That’s nice
U:
That is where a counsellor can help.... Even when we are kids.
J:
Can help us see things more objectively
U:
That is the role of a guru in Indian tradition. Someone who can help you to become independent of your past and reconnect with your family. As adults rather than as grown kids.
J:
Wow... See that I recreate pain in my relationships itself was a big step. Having realized that, now how do I go about...?
U:
Recognise that you are a human being with adequate insight, knowledge, resources skill and freedom to step out of your drama and your pain that is packaged therein. You can validate your pain in terms of "this is how it was for me". And you can say good bye to your pain be saying, "This is not how it need be for me."
This is a process that may take time or may be instantaneous.... Depending on how much you are influenced by your habitual thinking. This transformation is the real success that is worth spending a lifetime on...... Ja? With such a free mind, vedanta is a cakewalk. It is a simple transition that moves from I'm ok you're ok to I AM. I AM has no ok-ness issues, ha?
J:
Yep. But a certain ok-ness is reqd to see that. 'I am' has no ok-ness issues
U:
Very true na?
J:
Ya
U:
That is the requirement of a vedantin before Vedanta becomes meaningful
J:
I was going thru what we spoke....
U:
J:
Playing role of rescuer victim victimizer - would like to go and see the drama aspect more clearly
U:
Ok. Let’s play a psychological game now
J:
That’s interesting
U:
You wear a tee-shirt that says: I will take care of you. I wear a tee shirt that says: Help me. We start the game in good faith. After some time I show you my back. My tee shirt says: I knew you couldn’t help me. You too turn your back where your tee shirt says: You ungrateful wretch. I knew you would do this to me.
J:
Ok
U:
Your game is: Why does this happen to me. My game is: You can’t trust anyone to help
J: hmm
U:
In the game of Kick me, we play differently. I tell you a story about how nobody loves me. You tell me that you love and understand me. After some time, I behave differently. I irritate and bug you until you are fed up and throw me out as a no good fellow. I say: See, everyone kicks me. You say: See, people always take advantage of me.
After a period of cooling we start the game all over again. Or better still, we find new partners to play. The interesting thing about this game is the sense of surprise at the end of the game and the cache of negative strokes earned as a result. We play the game without being aware that it is a game. Only after many rounds do we realize that we have been there before. That is the beginning of awareness
J:
For me I went thru dramas knowing that I am really interested only in the kick of the drama...
U:
The kick is in the self righteousness that we feel and the attention that we draw to ourselves in spite of the bad feeling that is consequent to the drama. It is like a gamblers high.... you are such a practiced gamer that you can play the game blind
J:
Becomes second nature
U:
Yes. In a drama, we set ourselves up for getting a predictable number of strokes from the partner. We start with positive strokes and end up with the negative until our quota of strokes has been met. We are like loving porcupines that cannot stay away from each other too long and cannot approach too close for the fear of hurting each other.
We need to realize that it is our own beliefs that hurt us much more than the behavior of the others in our lives.
J: Makes me wonder if there are genuine feelings at all or everything is drama oriented ... scary!!
U:
Genuine feelings are scary, J, because it involves taking action, giving commitments, and changing habits and behaviors. So we take the easier route of game playing what we are looking for is to get strokes and give strokes that is involved in a healthy relationship. But rather than going for genuine strokes, we go for game strokes that are less threatening and more familiar.
J:
Strokes?
U:
A stroke is a sign or recognition that we give each other as human beings. It can be a hello, a kind word, a heated exchange, physical touch or emotional exchange.
J:
Basically attention
U:
Positive strokes are respect, smiling, appreciation, importance, hugs, or simple good morning. Negative strokes are insults, physical abuse, avoidance, and the like. These can be conditional - like giving positive/negative feedback, or unconditional - I love/hate you.
Strokes can be verbal – ‘hi’ or non verbal - the sarcastic look that says ‘o there she goes again!’ we grow up trying to get our quota of positive strokes, but if they are not coming, we settle for negative strokes. Once we are used to a regular supply, we live our life in a way that will ensure that we are stocked up to meet daily needs
J:
That’s the crux I think
U:
If we are used to more negative strokes on a daily basis, we become uncomfortable when someone gives a positive strokes. We might deflect the appreciation or say that it is undeserved.
J:
And we keep attracting situations and incidents where our supply of negative strokes is ensured
U:
Yes.
J:
That sums it all up right.
U:
The hierarchy of strokes based on ease of obtaining is 1) withdrawal (self strokes) 2) rituals (routine strokes), 3) pastime (weather, cricket etc), 4) activity (dancing, tennis) 5) games and 6) intimacy. The last consists of the most intense, difficult but rewarding strokes, for it is based on reality and problem solving.
You are free to communicate your anger, fear, sadness and happiness without restraint in order to clear the atmosphere and make quality changes in the relationship the communication is in terms of win-win thinking - I’m ok, you’re ok, you and me need to deal with some not ok issues and iron out a few wrinkles. It involves honesty, commitment, acceptance, respect, openness, and long term perspectives. As long as we are travelling in that direction, life is ok. ; ‘All is well…..’
V:
U:
Hey, how does it work?
V: My guess is as good as yours. Got it from an inspirational article by Bruce Doyle.... i understood the principle behind it and have been trying to apply it as and when I find myself forcefully trying to change to more desirable behaviors... cos that leaves me feeling dis-spirited, but when I try to identify the assumptions I am carrying and then work on them it seems to help me more. Life is hard work.
U:
Hard work Rocks, V.... Good work appreciated.
Beliefs are based on assumptions. The question is whether they are verified or not.
Verified, the belief is either confirmed or rejected. Unverified beliefs are the hazardous ones to which we hold on to desperately. The problem is we are so much invested in them that we are unwilling to see the possibility that we might be wrong.
Most of our offensive or self-defeating behaviours were picked up in childhood as a strategy to sail in family waters. The problem is the strategy we used in a pool no longer works when we are out at sea. Makes sense?
V:
Yes of course makes a lot of sense
K:
Thank you for sharing this conversation. May i add this that our perception and experience also helps us to look at beleifs differently and then subsequently it is easy to replace them with newer validated ones to swim in the sea of life and relationships.
S: This conversation resonates with me today more so because I have had a few stressful days at work and I was wanting the "problems" to go away. The "problems" reminded me of my old and ineffective habits...and hence its better to see them gone...but today morning, I chose to meditate and pray to help "de-stress" and I learned to sit down with my "problem"...just sit down, quietly with my problems, not fight it, not wish it to be gone, not actively plotting to replace it with better and more effective habits, but just sit down quietly with the "problem".
Since then, the "problem" seems smaller, non-threatening and not really a "problem" any more. There is still work to be done on managing old ineffective habits, but that I realize cannot be done without making peace with the existence of the "problem" in the first place. For now the "problem", in its smaller & less potent version, is resting with me, in a sacred space inside me and I have kept it right next to where my desires to learn and grow reside. -----------------
Serenity InteractiveTopics of Interest
Personal Growth Pages
How Do Beliefs Shape Our Life?
J:
Can we talk about how we create beliefs about various things, and how they affect us in our relationships and our personality
Can we talk about how we create beliefs about various things, and how they affect us in our relationships and our personality
U:
Ok. What beliefs do you have in mind?
Ok. What beliefs do you have in mind?
J:
I am talking wrt the book by Louise Hay where she talks about how her low self esteem and the belief that she is no good or lovable which was created by her childhood experiences
U:
Childhood experiences bring in a contrary belief such as I’m not ok, or you're not ok, or no one is ok. Basic belief is I’m ok you're ok world is ok. That is because of the child’s interpretation about events. Limited data and lacking in perspective Also the need to subscribe to such beliefs in order to manage events beyond its understanding. They are useful to survive through childhood until we can grow to become adults.
I am talking wrt the book by Louise Hay where she talks about how her low self esteem and the belief that she is no good or lovable which was created by her childhood experiences
U:
Childhood experiences bring in a contrary belief such as I’m not ok, or you're not ok, or no one is ok. Basic belief is I’m ok you're ok world is ok. That is because of the child’s interpretation about events. Limited data and lacking in perspective Also the need to subscribe to such beliefs in order to manage events beyond its understanding. They are useful to survive through childhood until we can grow to become adults.
J:
Can u give some examples? I mean examples of beliefs that we have as children which are useful
U:
As adults we have better understanding, better perspective, better resources, and better skills. What is needed is to manage this transition smoothly. It is like the ugly duckling becoming a swan. Or the eagle growing up in a chicken's nest. From my own example: I could never express my feelings of sadness, fear etc. I needed to feel strong and above emotions. So I withdrew into my own shell and lived as an introvert. Traces of it are there even today.
Can u give some examples? I mean examples of beliefs that we have as children which are useful
U:
As adults we have better understanding, better perspective, better resources, and better skills. What is needed is to manage this transition smoothly. It is like the ugly duckling becoming a swan. Or the eagle growing up in a chicken's nest. From my own example: I could never express my feelings of sadness, fear etc. I needed to feel strong and above emotions. So I withdrew into my own shell and lived as an introvert. Traces of it are there even today.
Fortunately I associated with role models who showed me a different world that I could peep into and learn. I also read and read and read...... So had access to a world of emotions that I could connect to .my condition made me empathise with other people's pain and helped me as a counsellor. But I was not living my own emotional life.... Only a proxy through others
I can relate to it... I feel I too have not expressed my feelings of sadness fear etc because I didn't want to seek sympathy
U:
This type of behaviour is called as the "be strong" driver in Transactional Analysis. Some other behaviours are "Be Perfect", “Be Pleasing" etc. We feel ok only when we fulfil the driver conditions. Else life is terrible.
U:
This type of behaviour is called as the "be strong" driver in Transactional Analysis. Some other behaviours are "Be Perfect", “Be Pleasing" etc. We feel ok only when we fulfil the driver conditions. Else life is terrible.
J:
How would a non-strong driver express
U:
Actually there is no non-strong driver..... Only non strong-driver behaviour. A driver free behaviour is very relaxing. One can give and receive strokes freely as required, and ask or refuse strokes if necessary. As adults we can appreciate each other, ask for appreciation or feedback, accept or refuse favours, say no when necessary, and also feel free to pat our own backs
How would a non-strong driver express
U:
Actually there is no non-strong driver..... Only non strong-driver behaviour. A driver free behaviour is very relaxing. One can give and receive strokes freely as required, and ask or refuse strokes if necessary. As adults we can appreciate each other, ask for appreciation or feedback, accept or refuse favours, say no when necessary, and also feel free to pat our own backs
J:
You mean there is no pressure to look good or strong
U:
Yes, you are right. Our ok-ness does not depend on looking good or strong, but on our basic humanness
You mean there is no pressure to look good or strong
U:
Yes, you are right. Our ok-ness does not depend on looking good or strong, but on our basic humanness
J:
Can u throw more light on what is basic humanness.
U:
All humans are deserving of love, happiness, success, and fulfilment. No one is basically undeserving. Also all humans are basic problem solvers and have adequate resources and skills to cope. We can trust each other and respect one another because I’m ok, you’re ok, and everyone is ok. Some of our thinking and behaviours may not be ok and that is a matter for problem solving, not labelling. Not OK beliefs are chronic beliefs that create disharmony, conflict, and disease. We can trust each other and respect one another because I’m ok Youre ok and everyone is ok
Can u throw more light on what is basic humanness.
U:
All humans are deserving of love, happiness, success, and fulfilment. No one is basically undeserving. Also all humans are basic problem solvers and have adequate resources and skills to cope. We can trust each other and respect one another because I’m ok, you’re ok, and everyone is ok. Some of our thinking and behaviours may not be ok and that is a matter for problem solving, not labelling. Not OK beliefs are chronic beliefs that create disharmony, conflict, and disease. We can trust each other and respect one another because I’m ok Youre ok and everyone is ok
J:
Going back a little... How do we develop this strong driver behaviour...? Is it inherent?
U:
OK beliefs are healing beliefs that promote understanding, cooperation, and good health. Well, it is a safety mechanism that is given to us to manage our childhood transition to manage painful situations and situations that do not make sense to us as children. It compensates for a lack of a trained counsellor who can guide us through the transition. It is a short term strategy that unfortunately we hold on to by habit through the long term and life term. The problem is that we become so smug with our strategies that we resist any suggestion that they are outdated and unproductive
Going back a little... How do we develop this strong driver behaviour...? Is it inherent?
U:
OK beliefs are healing beliefs that promote understanding, cooperation, and good health. Well, it is a safety mechanism that is given to us to manage our childhood transition to manage painful situations and situations that do not make sense to us as children. It compensates for a lack of a trained counsellor who can guide us through the transition. It is a short term strategy that unfortunately we hold on to by habit through the long term and life term. The problem is that we become so smug with our strategies that we resist any suggestion that they are outdated and unproductive
J:
Some of the negative beliefs are also given to us by our adults around
U:
Other adults are part of our child environment na? Sometimes we take their input as god’s word. Sometimes we know they are wrong but still we internalise their messages because it is better than losing the relationship. We lie to ourselves and say they are saying the truth; the problem must be with me. This is the basis of self distrust and self disgust - I’m not OK
Some of the negative beliefs are also given to us by our adults around
U:
Other adults are part of our child environment na? Sometimes we take their input as god’s word. Sometimes we know they are wrong but still we internalise their messages because it is better than losing the relationship. We lie to ourselves and say they are saying the truth; the problem must be with me. This is the basis of self distrust and self disgust - I’m not OK
J:
Hmm... Ya, as children though we sense the vibes...we can’t analyse that they are saying few things because of their constraints
U:
True. Sometimes we protest. If we are a rebel child, we cover up the I'm not OK feeling by projecting it on to them. They are not OK. So I'm OK They're not OK. This is the origin of the angry young man. Becomes a domineering parent who puts down the kids.... You good for nothing creatures! So the paramparaa goes on from parent to child. Worse is when nothing makes sense. Then I'm not OK you’re not OK. And World is not OK. Such a person is a frustrated and cynical person who says - do unto others before they do it unto you.
Hmm... Ya, as children though we sense the vibes...we can’t analyse that they are saying few things because of their constraints
U:
True. Sometimes we protest. If we are a rebel child, we cover up the I'm not OK feeling by projecting it on to them. They are not OK. So I'm OK They're not OK. This is the origin of the angry young man. Becomes a domineering parent who puts down the kids.... You good for nothing creatures! So the paramparaa goes on from parent to child. Worse is when nothing makes sense. Then I'm not OK you’re not OK. And World is not OK. Such a person is a frustrated and cynical person who says - do unto others before they do it unto you.
J:
Ok so trying to recap... We are born feeling I am ok, u are ok and the world is ok...childhood experiences bring in contrary beliefs such as i am not ok , u are nnot ok , world is not ok .. That is because we lack resource skill perspective and data . We take our parents and adults words around as gospel
Ok so trying to recap... We are born feeling I am ok, u are ok and the world is ok...childhood experiences bring in contrary beliefs such as i am not ok , u are nnot ok , world is not ok .. That is because we lack resource skill perspective and data . We take our parents and adults words around as gospel
U:
Judgements about experiences, and not the experiences themselves.... Childhood experiences are situations. Our response to them is based on how we judge them.... As safe, or terrible, etc. The same experience can be judged differently by different kids and their responses will be totally different from each other. It is our childhood judgment about experiences that influence our personalities.
Judgements about experiences, and not the experiences themselves.... Childhood experiences are situations. Our response to them is based on how we judge them.... As safe, or terrible, etc. The same experience can be judged differently by different kids and their responses will be totally different from each other. It is our childhood judgment about experiences that influence our personalities.
These judgments are usually self fulfilling.... We may respond meekly and then we are labelled meek and that make us believe we are meek and respond accordingly. Probably there is a lot of truth in the statement about nature and nurture.... We have a predisposition to judgments as children which is Polished by our childhood environment. Polished or erased....
J:
Hmm... Need for drama is an inherent part of my personality
U:
What sort of drama did you act out?
Hmm... Need for drama is an inherent part of my personality
U:
What sort of drama did you act out?
J:
Though I hated to see that behaviour in the adults around ... I inherited it in my own way. I want to understand this "drama” phenomenon... What is it really? When I think back I remember getting a kick out of doing peculiar things...
Though I hated to see that behaviour in the adults around ... I inherited it in my own way. I want to understand this "drama” phenomenon... What is it really? When I think back I remember getting a kick out of doing peculiar things...
U:
We all have our ways of escaping reality and fulfilling it in imagination or through activities. The problem is that we recreate the painful parts too until we come down to the ground reality. We look for a surrogate parent who will love us, but our choice is based on the image of our real parent. So we recreate the relationship with both the good and the bad aspects filled in. That is what the drama is all about.
We all have our ways of escaping reality and fulfilling it in imagination or through activities. The problem is that we recreate the painful parts too until we come down to the ground reality. We look for a surrogate parent who will love us, but our choice is based on the image of our real parent. So we recreate the relationship with both the good and the bad aspects filled in. That is what the drama is all about.
The drama consists of three roles.... Victimiser, victim, and rescuer. As the drama proceeds, we change our role from one to another and then feel bad. It usually requires two to play the drama.... Someone who will cooperate in fitting in to the script. Usually it is someone who had gone through the same drama before and knows it by heart. My drama usually starts with me as rescuer and ends up as victim. Secondary drama is victim - rebel
J:
You mean we attract situations where we play the role of a victim or a victimiser or rescuer
U:
Ya. Think of a tee shirt with double messages. The front says, play with me. The back says you cheated. Because that is the story of our life.... Our perception, not reality.
You mean we attract situations where we play the role of a victim or a victimiser or rescuer
U:
Ya. Think of a tee shirt with double messages. The front says, play with me. The back says you cheated. Because that is the story of our life.... Our perception, not reality.
J:
And what is reality?
U:
The adult world where we are free to do what we want as long as we respect limits. Even as children, reality may be one and our perception may be another. What is required is for us to get a reality check... Whether we were really punished or only disciplined, whether we were really unloved or only overlooked.
And what is reality?
U:
The adult world where we are free to do what we want as long as we respect limits. Even as children, reality may be one and our perception may be another. What is required is for us to get a reality check... Whether we were really punished or only disciplined, whether we were really unloved or only overlooked.
J:
That’s nice
U:
That is where a counsellor can help.... Even when we are kids.
That’s nice
U:
That is where a counsellor can help.... Even when we are kids.
J:
Can help us see things more objectively
U:
That is the role of a guru in Indian tradition. Someone who can help you to become independent of your past and reconnect with your family. As adults rather than as grown kids.
Can help us see things more objectively
U:
That is the role of a guru in Indian tradition. Someone who can help you to become independent of your past and reconnect with your family. As adults rather than as grown kids.
J:
Wow... See that I recreate pain in my relationships itself was a big step. Having realized that, now how do I go about...?
U:
Recognise that you are a human being with adequate insight, knowledge, resources skill and freedom to step out of your drama and your pain that is packaged therein. You can validate your pain in terms of "this is how it was for me". And you can say good bye to your pain be saying, "This is not how it need be for me."
Wow... See that I recreate pain in my relationships itself was a big step. Having realized that, now how do I go about...?
U:
Recognise that you are a human being with adequate insight, knowledge, resources skill and freedom to step out of your drama and your pain that is packaged therein. You can validate your pain in terms of "this is how it was for me". And you can say good bye to your pain be saying, "This is not how it need be for me."
This is a process that may take time or may be instantaneous.... Depending on how much you are influenced by your habitual thinking. This transformation is the real success that is worth spending a lifetime on...... Ja? With such a free mind, vedanta is a cakewalk. It is a simple transition that moves from I'm ok you're ok to I AM. I AM has no ok-ness issues, ha?
J:
Yep. But a certain ok-ness is reqd to see that. 'I am' has no ok-ness issues
U:
Very true na?
Yep. But a certain ok-ness is reqd to see that. 'I am' has no ok-ness issues
U:
Very true na?
J:
Ya
U:
That is the requirement of a vedantin before Vedanta becomes meaningful
Ya
U:
That is the requirement of a vedantin before Vedanta becomes meaningful
-------
J:
I was going thru what we spoke....
U:
Yes....
J:
Playing role of rescuer victim victimizer - would like to go and see the drama aspect more clearly
U:
Ok. Let’s play a psychological game now
Playing role of rescuer victim victimizer - would like to go and see the drama aspect more clearly
U:
Ok. Let’s play a psychological game now
J:
That’s interesting
U:
You wear a tee-shirt that says: I will take care of you. I wear a tee shirt that says: Help me. We start the game in good faith. After some time I show you my back. My tee shirt says: I knew you couldn’t help me. You too turn your back where your tee shirt says: You ungrateful wretch. I knew you would do this to me.
That’s interesting
U:
You wear a tee-shirt that says: I will take care of you. I wear a tee shirt that says: Help me. We start the game in good faith. After some time I show you my back. My tee shirt says: I knew you couldn’t help me. You too turn your back where your tee shirt says: You ungrateful wretch. I knew you would do this to me.
J:
Ok
U:
Your game is: Why does this happen to me. My game is: You can’t trust anyone to help
Ok
U:
Your game is: Why does this happen to me. My game is: You can’t trust anyone to help
J:
hmm
U:
In the game of Kick me, we play differently. I tell you a story about how nobody loves me. You tell me that you love and understand me. After some time, I behave differently. I irritate and bug you until you are fed up and throw me out as a no good fellow. I say: See, everyone kicks me. You say: See, people always take advantage of me.
U:
In the game of Kick me, we play differently. I tell you a story about how nobody loves me. You tell me that you love and understand me. After some time, I behave differently. I irritate and bug you until you are fed up and throw me out as a no good fellow. I say: See, everyone kicks me. You say: See, people always take advantage of me.
After a period of cooling we start the game all over again. Or better still, we find new partners to play. The interesting thing about this game is the sense of surprise at the end of the game and the cache of negative strokes earned as a result. We play the game without being aware that it is a game. Only after many rounds do we realize that we have been there before. That is the beginning of awareness
J:
For me I went thru dramas knowing that I am really interested only in the kick of the drama...
U:
The kick is in the self righteousness that we feel and the attention that we draw to ourselves in spite of the bad feeling that is consequent to the drama. It is like a gamblers high.... you are such a practiced gamer that you can play the game blind
For me I went thru dramas knowing that I am really interested only in the kick of the drama...
U:
The kick is in the self righteousness that we feel and the attention that we draw to ourselves in spite of the bad feeling that is consequent to the drama. It is like a gamblers high.... you are such a practiced gamer that you can play the game blind
J:
Becomes second nature
U:
Yes. In a drama, we set ourselves up for getting a predictable number of strokes from the partner. We start with positive strokes and end up with the negative until our quota of strokes has been met. We are like loving porcupines that cannot stay away from each other too long and cannot approach too close for the fear of hurting each other.
Becomes second nature
U:
Yes. In a drama, we set ourselves up for getting a predictable number of strokes from the partner. We start with positive strokes and end up with the negative until our quota of strokes has been met. We are like loving porcupines that cannot stay away from each other too long and cannot approach too close for the fear of hurting each other.
We need to realize that it is our own beliefs that hurt us much more than the behavior of the others in our lives.
J:
Makes me wonder if there are genuine feelings at all or everything is drama oriented ... scary!!
U:
Genuine feelings are scary, J, because it involves taking action, giving commitments, and changing habits and behaviors. So we take the easier route of game playing what we are looking for is to get strokes and give strokes that is involved in a healthy relationship. But rather than going for genuine strokes, we go for game strokes that are less threatening and more familiar.
U:
Genuine feelings are scary, J, because it involves taking action, giving commitments, and changing habits and behaviors. So we take the easier route of game playing what we are looking for is to get strokes and give strokes that is involved in a healthy relationship. But rather than going for genuine strokes, we go for game strokes that are less threatening and more familiar.
J:
Strokes?
U:
A stroke is a sign or recognition that we give each other as human beings. It can be a hello, a kind word, a heated exchange, physical touch or emotional exchange.
Strokes?
U:
A stroke is a sign or recognition that we give each other as human beings. It can be a hello, a kind word, a heated exchange, physical touch or emotional exchange.
J:
Basically attention
U:
Positive strokes are respect, smiling, appreciation, importance, hugs, or simple good morning. Negative strokes are insults, physical abuse, avoidance, and the like. These can be conditional - like giving positive/negative feedback, or unconditional - I love/hate you.
Basically attention
U:
Positive strokes are respect, smiling, appreciation, importance, hugs, or simple good morning. Negative strokes are insults, physical abuse, avoidance, and the like. These can be conditional - like giving positive/negative feedback, or unconditional - I love/hate you.
Strokes can be verbal – ‘hi’ or non verbal - the sarcastic look that says ‘o there she goes again!’ we grow up trying to get our quota of positive strokes, but if they are not coming, we settle for negative strokes. Once we are used to a regular supply, we live our life in a way that will ensure that we are stocked up to meet daily needs
J:
That’s the crux I think
U:
If we are used to more negative strokes on a daily basis, we become uncomfortable when someone gives a positive strokes. We might deflect the appreciation or say that it is undeserved.
That’s the crux I think
U:
If we are used to more negative strokes on a daily basis, we become uncomfortable when someone gives a positive strokes. We might deflect the appreciation or say that it is undeserved.
J:
And we keep attracting situations and incidents where our supply of negative strokes is ensured
U:
Yes.
And we keep attracting situations and incidents where our supply of negative strokes is ensured
U:
Yes.
J:
That sums it all up right.
U:
The hierarchy of strokes based on ease of obtaining is 1) withdrawal (self strokes) 2) rituals (routine strokes), 3) pastime (weather, cricket etc), 4) activity (dancing, tennis) 5) games and 6) intimacy. The last consists of the most intense, difficult but rewarding strokes, for it is based on reality and problem solving.
That sums it all up right.
U:
The hierarchy of strokes based on ease of obtaining is 1) withdrawal (self strokes) 2) rituals (routine strokes), 3) pastime (weather, cricket etc), 4) activity (dancing, tennis) 5) games and 6) intimacy. The last consists of the most intense, difficult but rewarding strokes, for it is based on reality and problem solving.
You are free to communicate your anger, fear, sadness and happiness without restraint in order to clear the atmosphere and make quality changes in the relationship the communication is in terms of win-win thinking - I’m ok, you’re ok, you and me need to deal with some not ok issues and iron out a few wrinkles. It involves honesty, commitment, acceptance, respect, openness, and long term perspectives. As long as we are travelling in that direction, life is ok. ; ‘All is well…..’
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V:
"Old limiting beliefs must be removed. Trying to overpower them is not the best use of time and energy. What's required for permanent change in your experience is a shift in focus from trying to overpower old beliefs with new ones, to a focus on identifying and simply dissolving the old beliefs that no longer serve you."
U:
Hey, how does it work?
U:
Hey, how does it work?
V:
My guess is as good as yours. Got it from an inspirational article by Bruce Doyle.... i understood the principle behind it and have been trying to apply it as and when I find myself forcefully trying to change to more desirable behaviors... cos that leaves me feeling dis-spirited, but when I try to identify the assumptions I am carrying and then work on them it seems to help me more. Life is hard work.
U:
Hard work Rocks, V.... Good work appreciated.
Hard work Rocks, V.... Good work appreciated.
Beliefs are based on assumptions. The question is whether they are verified or not.
Verified, the belief is either confirmed or rejected. Unverified beliefs are the hazardous ones to which we hold on to desperately. The problem is we are so much invested in them that we are unwilling to see the possibility that we might be wrong.
Most of our offensive or self-defeating behaviours were picked up in childhood as a strategy to sail in family waters. The problem is the strategy we used in a pool no longer works when we are out at sea. Makes sense?
V:
Yes of course makes a lot of sense
Yes of course makes a lot of sense
K:
Thank you for sharing this conversation. May i add this that our perception and experience also helps us to look at beleifs differently and then subsequently it is easy to replace them with newer validated ones to swim in the sea of life and relationships.
S:
This conversation resonates with me today more so because I have had a few stressful days at work and I was wanting the "problems" to go away. The "problems" reminded me of my old and ineffective habits...and hence its better to see them gone...but today morning, I chose to meditate and pray to help "de-stress" and I learned to sit down with my "problem"...just sit down, quietly with my problems, not fight it, not wish it to be gone, not actively plotting to replace it with better and more effective habits, but just sit down quietly with the "problem".
Since then, the "problem" seems smaller, non-threatening and not really a "problem" any more. There is still work to be done on managing old ineffective habits, but that I realize cannot be done without making peace with the existence of the "problem" in the first place. For now the "problem", in its smaller & less potent version, is resting with me, in a sacred space inside me and I have kept it right next to where my desires to learn and grow reside.
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Serenity InteractiveTopics of Interest
Personal Growth Pages
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Serenity Interactive
Topics of Interest
Personal Growth Pages
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